Curse

Burton2000 · Sep 24, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

If you say HA is more fast paced which id agree it is surely minors are better as you have more so you dont die instantly by spikes and such or any bit of pressure.

Deadly Eyezz · Sep 24, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I didn't get superior runes for my monk. i like the HP more.

Age · Sep 24, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

I put superiors on Minion Masters and on the damage attribute of Elementalists. And that's about it. Seems like this is generally the consensus

I disagree Minon Masters yes Fire Eles NO as I see them go up to the front lines and Nuke.I am not going to put protective spirit on the Ele instead of the Warrior who deserves it.That is what I can't understand about Fire Eles along a superior in Fire they have one in energy storage as well.It is best of all for all to stick to minors it works in PvP use it in PvE.

Divinitys Creature · Sep 25, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I only resort to majors or superiors if I need that itsy bit more damage to kill before I am killed in RA I find minors do fine with my fire ele.

lacasner · Sep 25, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Only superiors on damage dealing characters, preferably melee (Derv, sin, war etc.)

Ensign · Sep 25, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I don't really understand the motivation of people who pop into a min/max thread like this to say that it doesn't matter. If you're able to accomplish what you want to accomplish without optimizing your characters more power to you. Some of us are paying attention to what works better and why when playing the game, however, and since some people seem to have trouble with parts of it wouldn't you say it's useful to discuss what works best and why?

There very well may be players and groups that never die when playing Guild Wars, no matter what zone or difficulty they're attempting things on. My expectation when playing is that you're going to take deaths. Judging from the team builds that people run and talk about, I have to assume that they expect to take deaths as well. That's a good thing; if you never take any deaths ever you very likely aren't sacrificing enough health for power. If you never die ever in the zones you're attempting, you should seriously consider putting on a sup or dropping defensive skills.

The important thing to take out of this thread is that the offensive benefits you get from taking a superior rune are *much smaller* than the defensive benefits of that extra health. If you are having trouble with any part of GW PvE, taking off the superior for a minor, in a vast majority of cases, is an *obvious* choice. If you have a ton of armor swaps and you're doing easy content, by all means put on a superior and shave those seconds off of your time. If you're on a budget and aren't going to carry around a full arsenal with you, there's no question you should stick with minors for the most part. In the situations where the choice really matters, the extra defense is always better.

DreamWind · Sep 25, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The important thing to take out of this thread is that the offensive benefits you get from taking a superior rune are *much smaller* than the defensive benefits of that extra health.

Did you use minors back when armor swaps were still around? I remember WM claiming they used minor runes on their characters, particularly their melees. And that was when you could still armor swap even.

I was usually raged at for suggesting the idea though, so I stuck with superiors. =/

Seef II · Sep 25, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Only superiors on damage dealing characters, preferably melee (Derv, sin, war etc.)

That's the way I run it, but even on offensive casters I don't like the idea of superiors, especially if H/Hing. With a guild group in PvE, the game becomes "I'm Too Young to Die" so the sup would go on, if I had one crafted.

Improvavel · Sep 26, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

+40 hp wont save you, not even if its +40*8= 320hp. not even if you are just running minors, the +75 wont save you either.

The minimum health you need for PvE is around 450. If you can get more the best.

If mobs can wipe out a team composed of players with 450hp each, well something is wrong with your team,

Just let the Defy+Endure Pain, that is also enchanted with SoR and PS, Warrior absorb the damage, before the rest of the party engage. Let the Paragon spam "theres nothing to fear" and "save yourselves". Make sure the warrior has some kind of snare, either "Earth Grasp" or "None Shall Pass". Maybe let one of your ele or support casters bring some wards.

The higher the lvl of the enemy mob, the more sense makes to bring less health and more damage. Dead Monsters dont cause damage. Alive ones just keep hitting.

Ensign · Sep 27, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Did you use minors back when armor swaps were still around? I remember WM claiming they used minor runes on their characters, particularly their melees. And that was when you could still armor swap even. =/

My EProd Eles back then used 5 different hats regularly: Water with minor, Water with sup, Air with minor, Air with sup, ES with sup, all runes of the hat's attribute. You had minors on most of the time though.

Snow Bunny · Sep 27, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The higher the lvl of the enemy mob, the more sense makes to bring less health and more damage. Dead Monsters dont cause damage. Alive ones just keep hitting.

Uh huh...surrreee.

And then mob aggro breaks, and that Warrior Afflicted boss at lvl 30 smacks Your Vekk who's using a sup rune and he dies in a hit.

Dumbass.

You want high health so that you're prepared for the worst. You have better chances of killing stuff if your team is resilient enough to withstand the mob's own firepower.

Saphrium · Sep 27, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

PvE
As an elementalist, ritualist, necromancer, ranger or paragon, I would use superior rune for sure.
Warrior, assassin, mesmer, monk and dervish I will consider using a major rune.

Now rule out armor switching, just think about the chance you get attacked vs. how much damage you could inflict in return. Not +4 damage per hit, but how long if this continues for an hour fight?

Winterclaw · Sep 27, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

That's a good thing; if you never take any deaths ever you very likely aren't sacrificing enough health for power. If you never die ever in the zones you're attempting, you should seriously consider putting on a sup or dropping defensive skills.

I agree, but I'm also going to asteric that if you are going survivor or doing a group survivor challenge (all PCs in your group have to keep survivor active).

Quote:

The important thing to take out of this thread is that the offensive benefits you get from taking a superior rune are *much smaller* than the defensive benefits of that extra health.

No agruement there. In part because of this thread, I've been trying my el (the only char of mine that regularly used sup runes) with minor runes and I haven't seen too much a difference with damage... however I still need to play some more to see how much more I survive.

IMO what everyone should do instead of taking someone word for it is ask themselves, what break points or other benefits do I get from going with a sup over a minor, are they worthwhile, and do I need them more than I need my health? For example if you wanted to use a Obsidean Flesh/Glyph of Swiftness farming build that needed OF to be up all the time to work, then you need the sup earth rune and depending on who you are farming, the bonus from OF would more than make up for your loss of HP.

Improvavel · Sep 28, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Uh huh...surrreee.

And then mob aggro breaks, and that Warrior Afflicted boss at lvl 30 smacks Your Vekk who's using a sup rune and he dies in a hit.

Dumbass.

You want high health so that you're prepared for the worst. You have better chances of killing stuff if your team is resilient enough to withstand the mob's own firepower.

The enemy has more hit points, armor and damage.
You win cause you can have a larger pool of skills to chose from. They cant choose. They are always there with the same skills. Thats why you win.

The more time you take to wipe out a mob, the greater the chance they will break.

+75 or +40 hp wont make a difference if the mob break aggro. A player reacting fast enough to start moving away or cast PS on someone thats about to be trampled, will. The Paragon spamming +100 armor and 30% damage reduction to everyone will make a difference.

In GvG, hp make difference, cause everyone work with the same resources, and its about of exploiting a mistake, and when that happens 1-2 guys are enough to drop someone on the ground.

YOU DONT USE SUP RUNES ON HEROES, UNLESS THEY ARE MINION MASTERS OR LUT RUNNERS. PERIOD.

You guys also forgetting that a Sup rune = attributes points.
The last ranks take loads of AP. The last 2 ranks take 36 AP points. Thats almost (1 ap short) rank 8 (or 9 with a +1 rune) on another attribute. Whats more important 75 hp, or a 14 secs ward against melee? Or being able to drop a spirit? Or one Aegis even if running healing? Or the likes of Paragons and Rangers that seem to always use 3 attribute? Or being able to cast a heal party while being something else other than a monk?

Those 75 hp can become in a support spell that will make everyone work better or can become a prot monk that can cast a powerfull GoH, can be energy saved, etc, etc.

While not everyone needs a Sup rune, most can use it with very little fear if they know how to play

Spazzer · Sep 28, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Death Penalty is calculated before the effects of runes and weapon upgrades. Anyone who is taking the stance of "the extra xx health won't be enough to save you" is a fool.

A player with Radiant insignias, a superior vigor, and a superior attribute rune will have 455 health. That's small enough as it is; a direct hit from many Hard Mode bosses will instantly kill this player. However, if he dies just once, his death penalty is adjusted to 15%. That's 15% less of 480, and then he loses even more health from his runes. Suddenly he is at 383 HP.

A player with Survivor Insignias, a superior vigor, and a minor attribute rune will have 570 health. That same death penalty, and he's at 498 health. Note that the difference in HP between the two before (455 and 570 [21%]) and the difference in HP after (383 and 498[24%]) is increased. The death penalty may be 15%, but the person with the superior rune has lost more health percentage-wise and will have a much more difficult time earning his health back.

glountz · Sep 28, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Death Penalty is calculated before the effects of runes and weapon upgrades. Anyone who is taking the stance of "the extra xx health won't be enough to save you" is a fool.

Then I'm a fool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

A player with Radiant insignias, a superior vigor, and a superior attribute rune will have 455 health. That's small enough as it is; a direct hit from many Hard Mode bosses will instantly kill this player. However, if he dies just once, his death penalty is adjusted to 15%. That's 15% less of 480, and then he loses even more health from his runes. Suddenly he is at 383 HP.

A player with Survivor Insignias, a superior vigor, and a minor attribute rune will have 570 health. That same death penalty, and he's at 498 health. Note that the difference in HP between the two before (455 and 570 [21%]) and the difference in HP after (383 and 498[24%]) is increased. The death penalty may be 15%, but the person with the superior rune has lost more health percentage-wise and will have a much more difficult time earning his health back.

When what you're saying makes perfect sense in PvP, it means little in PVE, where DP can be removed by consumables, large amount of XP further increased by parchments, armor switch to minor runes, and even now, morale boosts every 25 mobs killed in GWEN.

Spazzer · Sep 28, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Vanquishing shouldn't cost any money. If you need consummables, you're doing it wrong.

glountz · Sep 28, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Vanquishing shouldn't cost any money. If you need consummables, you're doing it wrong.

I don't need consumables. I get it because I play events/kill bosses. They are a dead slot in inventory anyway. I never use them when i H/H, but always when I PVE with guildies. Looking like an elf or a sugar golem is fun! You should try it.
And consumables are far from being the only way to circumvent DP in PVE.

What I meant is that DP is central in PVP, really the least of your concern in PVE. Unless you don't want to use all the tools that are given freely to you most of the time in PVE.
That's the efficiency/health loss which is the problem. I will follow Antheus advice and test damage reducing against the master of damage tonight with and without Minors.

Snow Bunny · Sep 28, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

This thread should be over. Just read Ensign's posts. They're more than sufficiently explanatory.

gg.

Antheus · Sep 28, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

+40 hp wont save you, not even if its +40*8= 320hp. not even if you are just running minors, the +75 wont save you either.

The minimum health you need for PvE is around 450. If you can get more the best.

If mobs can wipe out a team composed of players with 450hp each, well something is wrong with your team,

Just let the Defy+Endure Pain, that is also enchanted with SoR and PS, Warrior absorb the damage, before the rest of the party engage. Let the Paragon spam "theres nothing to fear" and "save yourselves". Make sure the warrior has some kind of snare, either "Earth Grasp" or "None Shall Pass". Maybe let one of your ele or support casters bring some wards.

The higher the lvl of the enemy mob, the more sense makes to bring less health and more damage. Dead Monsters dont cause damage. Alive ones just keep hitting.

This, is why Holy trinity Sucks.

One trick pony. Tank dies, group wipes.

It's been a very long time since I played with tank in PvE group. The only exception are PUGs.

Yes, there's a huge difference between people running 450 or 595 health. For a monk, the difference of 145 health (or 25%) makes a lot of difference.

Because that extra 2 attribute points will not add 25% more damage, nor will they kill everything that much faster.

With tank, your group also can't spread out, since they need to watch agro, so a random nuke will simply wipe half of your group. Why do people complain so much about Shards of Orr and similar places? Only hench AI has problems with them. Wonder why...

In general, high health is more beneficial that 2 extra attribute points. It always depends on the team and the area, but speaking generally, health matters a lot.

And, the biggest reason why casters shouldn't have low health: Mobs target low health party members first

Not only do they have low health, they are also agro magnets.

Quote:

The more time you take to wipe out a mob, the greater the chance they will break.

So what if agro breaks. Let them run loose, let them scatter, let them frolic around. Agro breaks are only a problem for tank/nuker based groups.